I'm starting to see some serious downsides to being able to see who downvotes you.

A few days ago I downvoted someone's comment, and the next day I happened to notice every single comment I've ever made had at least one downvote. All from the person I dared to downvote the ONE time. I straight up asked why they did it, and they seem to think I'm an "obvious" troll account that "apparently just exist to downvote other people". I assure you I'm no troll account, and ironically don't really downvote all that often.
I know the topic of public downvotes has been discussed before, but I never used to care either way. Now I'm kinda leaning in the "I don't like it" side. Honestly, I'd be lying if I said I didn't feel a little offended, maybe even attacked. Also, there goes all my imaginary internet points. Lol
Has anyone else had something like this happen to them, or am I just unlucky?

livus,
@livus@kbin.social avatar

@billothekid2 honestly, it's not an uncommon phenomenon, it has nothing to do with seeing your downvotes.

Over the years on reddit, where votes are anonymous, I would sometimes notice all my comments being downvoted (usually after some kind of altercation, my favourite was the guy who singled me out for criticizing Margaret Thatcher... hardly a hot take).

In fact iirc reddit had to change its interface so that voting on comments from a person's profile page doesn't change their comment count.

Some people are just petty. I think it's better to at least know when it's happening so I can avoid that person.

magnetosphere,
@magnetosphere@kbin.social avatar

The same thing happened to me. The downvotes don’t bother me nearly as much as knowing that trolls can stalk us like that. It’s creepy. That’s the real issue.

Everyone telling you not to care about downvotes is missing the point.

canis_majoris,
@canis_majoris@lemmy.ca avatar

It doesn’t change the behavior if you can verify who did it or not. It literally doesn’t matter that you can see who downvoted you when it’s always been the case that anybody can go into your history and downvote all of it.

How are you going to call viewing a post history on the public facing internet “stalking”?

Jesus you guys play some gymnastics up in your domes.

magnetosphere,
@magnetosphere@kbin.social avatar

Looking at post histories isn’t stalking. That take would be a bit paranoid. Please don’t put words in my mouth.

Abusing someone’s post history to harass them is stalking, though.

canis_majoris,
@canis_majoris@lemmy.ca avatar

You make downvoting over and over sound like a cybercrime lol

magnetosphere,
@magnetosphere@kbin.social avatar

In your interpretation, maybe. I just think it’s obnoxious and rude to do it to all of someone’s comments. If someone genuinely disagrees with what I’ve posted, that’s not a problem.

livus,
@livus@kbin.social avatar

@magnetosphere but trolls stalk people anyway, I've had Downvote Fairies on reddit and kbin.

The kbin one wasn't even someone I'd downvoted.

magnetosphere,
@magnetosphere@kbin.social avatar

That’s even weirder. I’m sorry to hear that.

livus,
@livus@kbin.social avatar

@magnetosphere just the nature of the internet.

Sometimes people get weird bees in their bonnet. Personally I'd much rather know who it's coming from.

If I put a lot of effort into a comment or post and it gets downvoted by someone out of spite, I'd much rather know that's what happened than sit there wondering what's wrong with my post.

magnetosphere,
@magnetosphere@kbin.social avatar

Right? Leave me a comment telling me why you disagree! Maybe you have a point of view that I hadn’t considered. Maybe I got a fact wrong - I’d rather be corrected than keep on being wrong! I’m a big boy; I can take it.

Or, maybe I’m just being a jerk and all someone needs to do is talk some sense into me. By itself, a downvote doesn’t tell anyone anything. Reply! Talk to me!

livus,
@livus@kbin.social avatar

@magnetosphere this! I love it when someone points out stuff I haven't considered, especially if it turns out I'm wrong. Acknowleding that is the fastest way to actually turn it around and become right again.

OpenStars,
@OpenStars@kbin.social avatar

Man, I miss Reddit!

Said nobody here ever.:-) The average discussion experience here is just better, with people who care about facts rather than purely trolling.

livus,
@livus@kbin.social avatar

@OpenStars totally!

I originally only came here for something to do during the blackout, but it's just so much better here that I ended up never going back.

canis_majoris,
@canis_majoris@lemmy.ca avatar

stop caring about votes like they mean anything.

billothekid2,
@billothekid2@kbin.social avatar

I don't. That's why I called them imaginary internet points. Lol. My point was about the fact that you can see who downvotes you.

snooggums,
@snooggums@kbin.social avatar

If you didn't care you wouldn't have posted.

muse,
@muse@kbin.social avatar

If he didn't care he wouldn't have downvoted you just now either

Kusimulkku,

That’s hilarious. Another upside

livus,
@livus@kbin.social avatar

@billothekid2 this exchange raises another point. You and @snooggums downvoting each other here seem to be engaging in "downvote-to-disagree" with each other.

I don't see nearly as much of this on kbin as I do on, say, lemmy.world and I'm sure it's because of our more transparent voting system.

I'm personally not a fan because I think it's vaguely hostile and discourages open discussion.

FaceDeer,
@FaceDeer@kbin.social avatar

Same, generally speaking when I'm writing a comment in order to disagree with someone I want that other person's comment to be more visible to other readers. That way they can read it, see my response, and realize how wrong the original comment was and how right I am. :) I save my downvotes for comments that are so wrong they're not worth a response.

I'll even sometimes downvote a comment, ponder for a moment, and then remove my downvote and write a response instead.

livus,
@livus@kbin.social avatar

The way I see it, downvotes = "I wish this comment didn't exist" and doing it to punish someone for having a discussion with us is weird, since social media is all about discussions, and exchanging disagreeing points of view is interesting.

billothekid2,
@billothekid2@kbin.social avatar

Fair enough. I tend to think downvotes are warranted when it's not adding anything to the conversation and/or are somewhat hostile. Not that it's worth anything at this point, but the downvote was because I literally just explained myself on the very post they were responding to. People are just putting words in my mouth at this point just because they want to disagree, and at some point it's easier to downvote that to repeat myself.

snooggums,
@snooggums@kbin.social avatar

I am downvoting because complaining about downvotes while saying they don't matter is hypocritical and not a discussion made in good faith. Just wanted to see if they voted in response, showing their hypocrisy.

billothekid2,
@billothekid2@kbin.social avatar

You see? That's literally not what I said. I seem to have struck a nerve with you here and I'm not sure why. But go ahead. Give me my downvote that I apparently care so much about.

snooggums,
@snooggums@kbin.social avatar

canis_majoris said to stop caring and you replied with

I don't. That's why I called them imaginary internet points. Lol. My point was about the fact that you can see who downvotes you.

Yet, you noticed someone downvoting a bunch of your posts and took the time to contact them and ask for reason. Then you didn't like their response and made this post. Then when I downvoted it you downvoted my post. The only reason for you to do any of this is because you care about being downvoted. You react to it, yet say you don't care. That is what you said and did, and what I am responding to.

I hate being accused of lying, so I responded to you implying that I'm lying by claiming something other than what you said.

sour,
@sour@kbin.social avatar

is difference between getting downvoted and effect of getting downvoted

be_excellent_to_each_other,
@be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social avatar

FWIW, I usually downvote if the person is a dick. Often I also disagree with them, but not always. If you are dragging the conversation down (in some way other than having an unpopular opinion) you get a downvote.

billothekid2,
@billothekid2@kbin.social avatar

Agreed. Also, party on dude!

livus,
@livus@kbin.social avatar

Fair enough. I think my dick threshold is pretty high, they have to be spamming or griefing or something like that.

FaceDeer,
@FaceDeer@kbin.social avatar

I see that @AmidFuror was not a fan of this comment. :)

AmidFuror,

Damn straight.

ThatOneKirbyMain2568,
@ThatOneKirbyMain2568@kbin.social avatar

I don't think it's as simple as that. Downvotes do have some kind of meaning — when you give a downvote, you're doing it for some reason that you want to convey — and people are going to interpret downvotes accordingly. If downvotes didn't mean anything, then there'd be no point to them existing at all. What exactly a downvote means depends on the person giving it, but it's ideally (imo) used to express that a post is spam, hateful, or otherwise a bad contribution to the discussion. Obviously, people shouldn't take downvotes personally, but a post being downvoted does and should mean something.

Thus, what OP mentions in his post is a legitimate concern. Public votes allow people to more easily downvote spam someone who downvoted them, which is unequivocally a bad thing that we'd prefer not to have. However, whether we should make votes private is a matter of whether the downsides outweigh the upsides, and they don't.

Dio,
@Dio@lemy.lol avatar

Is this really an issue for people. Lol.

magnetosphere,
@magnetosphere@kbin.social avatar

You’re asking this in a thread where someone describes exactly how it’s an issue for them.

canis_majoris,
@canis_majoris@lemmy.ca avatar

Yeah but it’s a non-issue, because they’re describing a behavior that cannot be prohibited regardless of if you can see who did it or not. It’s not like there’s a hard archive timer on votes disallowing comments to be interacted with; people can go down the whole history of any of our accounts and downvote all of it.

It’s literally a non-issue, this guy is freaking out because he can just see who did it, like it makes a difference. It’s the ostrich syndrome, if you bury your head in the sand (can’t verify) then it matters less.

billothekid2,
@billothekid2@kbin.social avatar

Who's freaking out my dude? My point was this wouldn't have happened if THEY didn't know who I was. You and others make some good points about some how this happens regardless, and how there are upsides to seeing who downvotes you. I honestly wasn't aware this was a common thing until now. It's why I asked if this has happened to anyone else. Chalk it up to me being a bit naive.

canis_majoris,
@canis_majoris@lemmy.ca avatar

I just don’t get how anybody doesn’t understand how user voting works, regardless of the ability to identify who did which votes.

Are you just now learning that on the internet people are just randomly dicks? Like it hasn’t been that way for the last 20 years?

billothekid2,
@billothekid2@kbin.social avatar

Oh, I'm aware. I've just never heard of "Downvote Fairies". In any case that was never my point, as I've explained.

can,

This is an obvious downside. I’ve experienced a similar thing but being a lemmy user I don’t know who I pissed off. Which is for the best. It was a one off. Ignore it and chances are this one will be too.

FaceDeer,
@FaceDeer@kbin.social avatar

Didn't you just see the upside too, though? You can see who's downvoting all your comments and call them out on it. Someone could downvote stalk you on Reddit (quite sure that has happened to me before) and it would be invisible and unprovable.

billothekid2,
@billothekid2@kbin.social avatar

True, but if they hadn't seen it was me that downvoted them in the first place, they wouldn't know who to stalk, and I wouldn't have to call anyone out at all. Really though, I can still see both sides here. I'm just bitter it happened to me. Lol

livus, (edited )
@livus@kbin.social avatar

@billothekid2 I'm with @FaceDeer on this, it's way better to know you have a Downvote Fairy than to just think no one appreciates your comments.

Back on reddit it happens a lot, but the targets are more likely to feel discouraged or think the person they are replying to is the one downvoting them.

Besides, I had someone doing this to me here on kbin for a couple of days and they are not someone I ever downvoted or had even argued with.

I asked them to stop and they downvoted me one last time and then stopped. I don't think they'd realized I can see them.

So the cause isn't that people can see your downvotes, it's that some people are just dicks.

sik0fewl,

So the cause isn't that people can see your downvotes, it's that some people are just dicks.

Words to remember.

Madison_rogue,
@Madison_rogue@kbin.social avatar

They went through all the trouble to downvote every post. You lived in that user's head rent free all that time. Wear that shit like a badge of honor. They're internet points; they're not important.

magnetosphere,
@magnetosphere@kbin.social avatar

Yeah, trolls really care about being “called out”. Trolls can’t stand negative attention, so be sure to tell lots of people who they are and what they did!

FaceDeer, (edited )
@FaceDeer@kbin.social avatar

Assuming you're being sarcastic and mean the opposite, this hasn't been my experience, actually. Just like with @livus, above, I called out a downvote-stalker once who'd been following me around and when I described how I was seeing his downvote pattern he instantly vanished. In my experience the "downvote warriors" are a cowardly bunch, they love being able to throw punches without being seen to throw punches. Once you make it clear to them that everyone can see what they're doing they crumple under scrutiny.

The trolls you're talking about are the kind that love to get into an argument with you. That's quite different.

livus,
@livus@kbin.social avatar

@FaceDeer interesting, wonder if it was the same person!

The other thing that hasn't bern mentioned yet is vote manipulation is easy to spot on kbin.

When reddit first migrated here I remember someone being called out for having 3 or 4 profiles upvote/downvote all the same things.

FaceDeer,
@FaceDeer@kbin.social avatar

Could be, I have no clue what their name was. I feel the worst fate for such people is to be irrelevant so I try to forget about them. :)

Yeah, the ability to spot vote manipulation is a nice one. The current interface for kbin makes it laborious to click through so many comments and posts to check, but once the API is settled it should be possible to write some nice tools for that kind of thing.

magnetosphere,
@magnetosphere@kbin.social avatar

Okay. Yeah, I was being sarcastic, but now I see we had different kinds of trolls in mind. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

FaceDeer,
@FaceDeer@kbin.social avatar

No problem. And I can imagine that there might be some out there who would indeed be gleeful about being called out for downvoting because they're just that deep into the "raging asshole" state that any negative attention is giving them the dopamine hit they crave. But I suspect that kind of troll is going to be blatant enough that he'll get blocked or banned by most places worth hanging out in anyway.

I probably shouldn't admit it, but one of my favourite ways of dealing with a raging asshole on Reddit was to be impeccably polite to them until they blew their stack badly enough while trying to provoke me that I could report them. :) I'd only do that if they were clearly already unredeemable, though.

livus,
@livus@kbin.social avatar

@FaceDeer the super annoying thing on reddit would be when I was having a polite discussion with someone and a third party came along and silently downvoted everything they said to me.

Then they'd get all annoyed assuming it was me who did it.

FaceDeer,
@FaceDeer@kbin.social avatar

A "fun" experience from Reddit that I'm glad is impossible here on kbin is when I'm in an argument with someone and they would insta-downvote every response I made to them, then vociferously deny that they were doing it even when it was basically impossible for it to be otherwise (for example if we were in a days-old thread nobody else was paying attention to and the downvote was happening within a minute or two of me posting - too fast to even have read the comment).

On a related note, I'm pleased that blocking someone doesn't prevent them from responding to your comments here. The "get the 'last word' in and then block me so I couldn't answer" pattern was even more annoying, since karma was meaningless anyway but the block disrupted the flow of informative debate if other people were following it too. In such situations I'd edit the last comment I'd made to mention what had happened, at least. Hope that shamed a few folks at least a little bit.

livus,
@livus@kbin.social avatar

@FaceDeer yeah that secret downvoting thing was super passive-aggressive.

What was most annoying about blocks was that bug where you couldn't reply to anyone downthread of a comment by the person who blocked you, so they could effectively end your other conversations with other people.

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