Seems that so long as the attribution is in place the Postmill people aren't going to push it further. I (and I hope the community) appreciate your transparency and honesty. That's the sort of thing that makes me want to stick around here and support this project.
And for fun, I will check out those other sites, since I hadn't heard about Postmill/Raddle before.
Is 'LitigiousEmma' an inside joke, or an extremely relevant username? haha
Edit: For some reason this keeps bouncing around in my head and the more I think about the more I believe that Emma should have contacted you privately (at first, anyway) instead of jumping right into attempting to publicly shame you.
Edit: For some reason this keeps bouncing around in my head and the more I think about the more I believe that Emma should have contacted you privately (at first, anyway) instead of jumping right into attempting to publicly shame you.
The issue tracker for kbin codebase was the correct place to submit the complaint.
Licensing issues are tricky and if you're the copyright holder there's no way to know if people stealing your code are acting in good faith or not. Best course of action is to document and report the violations "officially". You need to have a clear track record in case the other part is going to try to deny or obfuscate the situation.
It was the right thing to do.
As for the tone and the username.
From what I can see, she's the main dev for that codebase and has been for many, many years. She gets to decide the tone, she's the one who's defending her rights and work.
Having said that, ernest handled it well - and is clearly acting in good faith. So that should be the end of that.
I’m not a coder, so hopefully you can answer my question. When using open source code, does each instance of borrowed code need to be “tagged” and identified to attribute to the original author? My brain keeps telling me that all this code needs is a MLA reference page, but after reading this post I’m assuming it’s more difficult than that.
Yup that’s basically it. If you have some electronic device (like an Android or iPhone), you can go to some sort of “about phone” setting page and poke around for a licenses button that’ll show you all the software that your device uses. It’s just proper attribution.
I’ve done reverse engineering and found obvious illegally used GPL code in closed source projects, and they could (theoretically) get in big trouble for not following the license. (I anonymously requested their source based on the terms of the license, but the company threatened to sue for reverse engineering, so it’s often not worth it)
Damn emma really tore into you in that issue lol. A lot of assumptions about malicious intentions when a simple mistake seems much more likely. I mean I know they're in the right defending their work but damn idk if they needed to make such a big public stink about it lol
Contacting the project "officially" through the the public tracker was the right thing to do.
As for the tone of the message - I don't think it was out of line considering the circumstances.
Mistakes do happen (licensing is actually hard) - and I'm happy to see it got fixed fast.
Which is why the tone is striking people here as over the top. Ernest is clearly not a large business trying to profit off their work so some benefit of the doubt was warranted.
Ernest corrected it and the story is over so none of this matters, but open source devs going at other devs who make a mistake with attribution just makes the ecosystem a less nice place to be. Save that hostility for the ones trying to take advantage of others
Yeah I suppose you're right. Just the little digs at earnest's character seem needlessly hostile to me. like saying he edited the code to hide its origins or saying "what would your sponsors think?"
idk. just don't like it. I do feel for them, I'm sure having your work copied without credit sucks. just wish we could all be friends and hold hands and shit:(
This is one of my largest frustrations with the open source community. Everything is immediately assumed as malicious. There is no escalation, it's "you screwed me over" from the jump.
I suppose it's bred from decades of large corporations pilfering open source for profit. However, this post could easily have been, "I noticed there's some code I wrote that wasn't attributed, would you mind adding that?". Escalate from there if the appropriate actions aren't taken.
For real, the person's name is LitigousEmma. This is one step away from a copyright troll, which imo seems to the the mortal enemy of the idea of FOSS. Did this Emma recognize all the developers of the programming languages they used, or the people who made the computer they worked on, or the pioneers of electronics in general? It's not like Emma took quarks and atoms and turned it into an web aggregator.
In LitigousEmma's defense, kbin did not comply with the license terms of the open source software, so there is a valid concern here. Unlike most programming languages which are often released under licenses which do not requite attribution.
However, mistakes happen. The open source community is better off if we could all just start from 0 and escalate based on response.
Honestly that's my only issue with this. Ernest was totally rightfully called out for this, as he should have been. But Emma's knee jerk reaction is just a real bad look. Don't make any attempt to reach out and figure out why it's in there. Immediately make a public post accusing him of stealing code, trying to hide that he stole it, and claim it as his own...on a FOSS project no less...
Right, I wasn't saying it shouldn't have been a public post. Just that the public post shouldn't have immediately jumped to accusations. FOSS or not, accusing someone of stealing code and intentionally trying to obfuscate its origin to pass it off as their own is a big deal for a developer. One that can destroy your reputation
A simple "I've noticed snippets in here of my work that falls under a license which is not attributed at all. Could you add the proper attributions or remove it from your project?" says the same thing and doesn't jump to any accusations that you have no idea if are true or not
Not knowing either parties at all, I'd say the best solution is to assume both meant the best and some mistakes were made. One for forgetting to give credit for code, the other for wording in their asking to fix the mistake. At the end of the day, credit is given and the code grows, both benefit. Don't dwell on the small stuff that got there, problem is solved.
accusing someone of stealing code and intentionally trying to obfuscate its origin to pass it off as their own is a big deal for a developer. One that can destroy your reputation
Is it? It sure didn’t destroy the reputations of the Microsoft employees who plagiarized Stacker. And their plagiarism cost people their livelihoods, not just a smidgen of fame.
Whether it’s a photo used without permission by a big company or people using your work without attribution there does tend to be a dismissive attitude overall (not that that is the case here)
I can see how somebody could come into this situation with that as the background and just cut right to the chase.
There wasn’t a “cease and desist” (the legal equivalent of an ahem) nor a DMCA copyright takedown (harsher but less financial damaging than a copyright suit with damages)
Their tone was scolding but it was a “hey… heads up… you gotta fix this” without resorting to any of the above.
Ernest took it with the right attitude and Emma accepted it and that’s that.
Couldn’t really ask for a better outcome and Emma has every right to come out swinging harder than she did.
I can’t speak to her experience with this but personally it is sometimes better to be firm (but fair) at the outset so people don’t ignore a softer tone requiring you to escalate it.
Copyright is the enemy of freedom and knowledge. What if Einstein copyrighted E=MC^2? Emma didn't create the software, they just figured out how to make it.
He couldn't have copyrighted E=mc^2, he'd have had to patent it. But laws of nature are excluded from patent eligibiligy in the US, and presumably most other jurisdictions.
Software code is an interesting edge case in the middle. The code itself is a creative expression, and so copyright applies. This brings benefits as well as restrictions; software code is also speech as far as many free-speech rights are concerned. The algorithms expressed by the code are subject to software patents, which is a more controversial grey area.
I agree. Firstly, a public post...and secondly...a public post bashing a fellow developer with passive aggressive quotes.
Now I may be assuming but it didn't seem like LitigiousEmma mad an attempt to privately contact Ernest and... and assumed the worst in the post.
I'm just a reddit normie so I don't know what happens behind the scenes but so far Ernest has been earnest and honest... as long as that is the case I'll stand with you bud!
You made a mistake and are taking responsibility for it. I respect that!
P.S. - Notice how LitigiousEmma's post is recent. LE just wants their name out there. If Kbin flopped then no fs would be given.
Nah I do believe that it was right to open an issue, and also that the code should've been credited. But it is now. Also I mean... yes? How else would you expect for them to find the code? /kbin is a project with quite a few eyes on it now. If you upload a project that nobody looks at, of course things like that go unnoticed. Doesn't make them less wrong.
But all is well that ends well. If you do anything in the public, you gotta be prepared to deal with people who might not be the friendliest. That's fine. I think defusing the situation like was done here and immediately fixing the problem was exactly how this kind of thing should have gone. It's on all of us to defuse tense situations, whether we're bringing up an issue or responding to an issue brought up by someone that might be offended. Kinda like how you should be driving defensively to avoid any accidents before they can begin to happen. I guess? Oh god I'm making too many driving analogies today I really gotta stop.
[edit]: I'm also not trying to call out the person opening the issue. There are many ways why it might have been worded like that, including past experience. People are very complex and seeing just a snippet of them like this isn't what we should immediately base all of our judgements on.
It's alright. I do think the actual issue was worded perhaps a bit harshly and combative, and I think you responded correctly. Very much appreciate the accountability here. To be honest if anything, this probably gives me more faith in you in the long run. There are many ways you could have dealt with it, but as far as I can see you've dealt with the issue as honorably as you could have.
Proper attribution can be tricky. We all learn. We all make mistakes. A lot of us will never release a project that makes it as far as yours has so even our issues don't become even nearly as visible.
Keep your head up and stay calm. You're doing great. We got you.
There are many ways you could have dealt with it, but as far as I can see you've dealt with the issue as honorably as you could have
It's certainly a far cry away from "We will remain profit driven until profits arrive" that a certain someone said in response to a legitimate question over on the other site. A breath of fresh air really.
@ernest Hey man, if it's of any help, I have a PHP (laravel) project which mostly federates fine, license is AGPLv3 as well, so feel free to reuse what you see fit.
This is the kind of transparent communication that buys so much goodwill and trust from the community. I've been enjoying my first experience in the Fediverse with Kbin, and the response here only makes me love it that much more. Nicely handled.
Agreed. I had already created an account on a Lemmy instance (Lemmy.one since I wanted to avoid the two main .ml instances). I had just about settled but decided to give Kbin a try. While it doesn't seem quite as far along in it's development, it struck me as a better user experience. Combined with reservations I have about the Lemmy developers... Well, here we are. And seeing this level of involvement and dedication to doing the right thing from the developer confirms that choice. Kudos @ernest
As I am totally new to this whole thing, could you elaborate for me on those reservations about the lemmy developers? And are those the same that created lemmy.world?
I was really getting sick of all the negativity on Reddit. It feels like about 80% of posts are shitting on someone for some reason that I don't really care about. Feels like a bunch of bitchy teenage girls all trying to rain on each others parade. I hope they all choke on their own social vomit.
So glad there seems to be NONE of that energy here. I hope it never arrives.
Other random thoughts/observations:
I appreciate that kbin/fediverse is more mature and academic.
I like Star Trek much more than Star Wars and see plenty of ST and no SW here.
While I appreciate that Reddit has more smaller and special interest communities because of it's size, I like that kbin is smaller. I think it will be a little sad to see it get big.
I plan to stay here for a while. I may host a mag or two eventually. I have ideas for improvements but as a non app user it seems pretty good so far.
Also, thanks to Ernest (sp?) and others who keep the lights on and motors running. You make it all possible.
I had to leave it at around November 2022 cause I noticed the negativity was seirously harming my mental health. Im only a lurker in all social medias, so I was surprised something "finally" got to me. Since I had been "immune" to metaverse shit up to that point (not because im in any way better than anyone, I just dont have enough IRL friends to matter lol), I was surprised with how much reddit mined my sanity without me noticing.
And I fully intended to only keep Insta for family contact and tiktok for funny videos until GOOGLE FUCKING STOPS WORKING. So now I need another "search engine alternative" -_-
Well, disaster averted, let's hope we get at least a decade or so of usage on this one!
yeah it seems to be that, if you @ someone that link comes back 404, but if you get them proper (from a comment or post) the page comes up. Thanks for pointing this out.
That's not quite what I meant: Here is an @ link: @HorreC If you left-click it, so it opens in the same tab, it should work properly. But usually people don't want to do that when they open profiles, they want to center-click them so they save the original tab. Try center-clicking it; you'll get a 404.
damn it chica you are all over this site (I liked a lot of the alt looks you posted and noticed it was all you), but your name if I open a new tab on it is golden, but all of theirs come back with the 404, but like @RheingoldRiver said it might be a bug related thing.
I was on the fence about the voting being public, some people may not wanna get shit for agreeing with one point or another was one point I saw (they may not feel they can vote freely) but it certainly does force accountability.
Why thank you. :) It was a name I picked kind of randomly years ago when I decided to respond to a Reddit comment and needed to register an account, and I just happened to have seen the Endless Forest right beforehand. I never actually played it, though. It's since become my default online handle despite none of my interests being specifically oriented towards deer.
Absolutely. They are doing it with the intention of karma farming because they only post shitposts and useless Reddit crap like this, but this is a serious issue if they move on to opinion posts and politics.
What's dumb is reputation doesn't even do anything on Kbin right now other than make you go "haha I have higher number than you" so reputation farming is a total waste of time. Personally I hope it stays that way as it will deter the farmers, I can see some of the benefits of the karma system in Reddit but it's just too prone to manipulation to be actually useful in any way.
I think you could make a small amount of money for selling a reddit account with high karma...but that's the only thing I ever heard of it being useful for.
It also grants a small amount of credibility of not being some random new account shill or whatever, but given how accounts can be sold, it doesn't really do that if you're paying any attention
That's a fair point, I forgot that was a thing that could be done. Was that useful? Do you think it's something that should be possible here in the future?
As someone who was mostly a lurker on Reddit, it was really annoying, actually. The rare times I wanted to comment on something, only to be hit with being told my karma was too low, so I couldn’t? It put me off those subreddits fast and ended up made me less likely to try to comment on things.
This is exactly what some people are after. It lets them believe they are oh so better for having no life outside of the internet. And content quality on kbin suffers in the process.
Well, when all your posts will start with a minus 5 and become invisible maybe you will start to care? Because you WILL have your haters too. Some people are that crazy.
I do care because even though these virtual point mean fuck all, users will degrade everyone's experience to try and farm them. We'll be getting low quality, rage-bait inducing posts, reposts being boosted to the top and actual good content being overshadowed just because an arsehole wants bigger numbers
Here come the downvotes - 4 downvotes, 3 of which are from accounts that were made after I posted this. What a loser lmfao I can't get over it this is fucking hilarious. This is pathetic and should be proof enough that vote manipulation is something we need to deal with.
And now they've started to remove their downvotes. I don't even get it at this point. I'm just gonna go to bed that person's a headache to figure out honestly.
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