I'm starting to see some serious downsides to being able to see who downvotes you.

ThatOneKirbyMain2568, 10 months ago (edited 10 months ago)

While that's definitely a notable downside, I think the upsides outweigh it.

For one, being able to see upvotes & downvotes seems to have made a lot of people a bit more thoughtful with handing them out. This obviously isn't the case for everyone — there's still a good bit of downvoting people for disagreeing with the hivemind — but I and others have observed that downvote quality is a lot better here on kbin.social, and I think that vote visibility is a big part of that.

It's also just transparency on kbin.social's part. If votes federate, anyone can set up an instance to view your votes or just go to one that shows them. Someone could literally make a website listing downvotes throughout the fediverse, and there's nothing stopping them. Kbin.social is being transparent about the fact that votes on the fediverse can be accessed by the public, and I have no issue with that.

EDITː Removed a stray asterisk

livus, 10 months ago

@ThatOneKirbyMain2568

Kbin.social is being transparent about the fact that votes* on the fediverse can be accessed by the public

This is important. The kind of petty, persevering trolls that @billothekid2 is worried about are exactly the kind of people who'd be likely to look up who downvoted them.

Kbin just makes it clear to us that this info is out there. Anonymous voting isn't possible in federated social media.

CoffeeAddict, 10 months ago

Also, even if they wanted to I don’t think voting could be made anonymous at this point, either. I’m not a programmer in any sense, but I imagine it would totally break federation. Total anonymity would probably need to be a feature from the start.

Kbin at least puts it out there so you know it’s not totally anonymous. Sometimes I wonder how many lemmy users are unaware of this because the software doesn’t make it apparent.

Mounticat, 10 months ago

Hmm... I'm no expert, and probably not even competent at these sort of matters, but the thing that popped to my mind was "something something encryption something something trust". I wonder if this has a smart solution.

losttourist, 10 months ago

No. The whole point of Federated software is that things happen on one server, and by the very design of the system those things get shared out to other servers. "Things" could be anything from posts to comments to up/down votes.

The only way to have anonymous voting would be to make the up/down votes strictly local to a particular server, which kind of defeats the purpose of a federated system.

JowlesMcGee, 10 months ago

Actually, our downvotes don't federate out, and we don't get incoming downvotes either, so you could totally make them private within an instance since that information doesn't leave the instance anyway.

Not advocating one way or the other, just pointing out that it technically could be an option.

squiblet, 10 months ago

I think it would be possible. The software would just have to record a downvote, saying “we checked out this account and registered one downvote, and everything was valid”. The downvote is only reversible on the original instance the logged in user is on, anyway, and that’s between the user and server. The identity doesn’t have to be displayed to others on the original instance or federated.

CoffeeAddict, 10 months ago

Someone could literally make a website listing downvotes throughout the fediverse, and there's nothing stopping them.

This is why I agree that it should be shown upfront. A lot of people won’t like it, but I think users should be somewhat aware that it’s all technically visible.

Someone is gonna make an instance that does exactly this at some point. It will be inevitable as the fediverse matures.

can, 10 months ago

This is an obvious downside. I’ve experienced a similar thing but being a lemmy user I don’t know who I pissed off. Which is for the best. It was a one off. Ignore it and chances are this one will be too.

Damaskox, 10 months ago

I'm okay with someone not agreeing with me. I'm okay with someone downvoting me.
Someone downvoting everything I have and will ever make? Well, there's a magazine I'd love to get more folks in and this behavior could cripple it badly, since I get next-to-no votes in there from others so it's already difficult to get more eyes on it. But other than that I think I get more agreements so I wouldn't care that much.

Therefore I'm happy that there's an upvote and downvote (and a reputation) system.

muse, 10 months ago

Counterpoint: it makes it even more apparent when bigoted alt right trolls like AnotherAttorney post and we can see they're the ones upvoting and boosting their own terrible posts, and ridicule them til they quit or switch sock puppets

bedrooms, 10 months ago

Somewhat off topic, but I'm tired of people who can't argue properly.

billothekid2, 10 months ago

?

bedrooms, 10 months ago (edited 10 months ago)

You know, those people who can't read, start their comments with "lmao you're the dumbest person I've ever seen" and end them with "you're a troll".

magnetosphere, 10 months ago

Or deliberately misinterpret what’s being said, either radically or just subtly enough to make their obnoxious “point”

sour, 10 months ago

do they use fallacy

Kolanaki, 10 months ago

They pretty much only use fallacies. Begging the question, whataboutisms, straw man… It’s practically all they seem to know.

bedrooms, 10 months ago

On Reddit, these people got their comments deleted as soon as they moved on to insults.

Fediverse generally lacks mods for now. So we're largely on our own.

I learned to check for red flags before commenting.

canis_majoris, 10 months ago

stop caring about votes like they mean anything.

billothekid2, 10 months ago

I don't. That's why I called them imaginary internet points. Lol. My point was about the fact that you can see who downvotes you.

snooggums, 10 months ago

If you didn't care you wouldn't have posted.

muse, 10 months ago

If he didn't care he wouldn't have downvoted you just now either

Kusimulkku, 10 months ago

That’s hilarious. Another upside

livus, 10 months ago

@billothekid2 this exchange raises another point. You and @snooggums downvoting each other here seem to be engaging in "downvote-to-disagree" with each other.

I don't see nearly as much of this on kbin as I do on, say, lemmy.world and I'm sure it's because of our more transparent voting system.

I'm personally not a fan because I think it's vaguely hostile and discourages open discussion.

FaceDeer, 10 months ago

Same, generally speaking when I'm writing a comment in order to disagree with someone I want that other person's comment to be more visible to other readers. That way they can read it, see my response, and realize how wrong the original comment was and how right I am. :) I save my downvotes for comments that are so wrong they're not worth a response.

I'll even sometimes downvote a comment, ponder for a moment, and then remove my downvote and write a response instead.

livus, 10 months ago

The way I see it, downvotes = "I wish this comment didn't exist" and doing it to punish someone for having a discussion with us is weird, since social media is all about discussions, and exchanging disagreeing points of view is interesting.

billothekid2, 10 months ago

Fair enough. I tend to think downvotes are warranted when it's not adding anything to the conversation and/or are somewhat hostile. Not that it's worth anything at this point, but the downvote was because I literally just explained myself on the very post they were responding to. People are just putting words in my mouth at this point just because they want to disagree, and at some point it's easier to downvote that to repeat myself.

snooggums, 10 months ago

I am downvoting because complaining about downvotes while saying they don't matter is hypocritical and not a discussion made in good faith. Just wanted to see if they voted in response, showing their hypocrisy.

billothekid2, 10 months ago

You see? That's literally not what I said. I seem to have struck a nerve with you here and I'm not sure why. But go ahead. Give me my downvote that I apparently care so much about.

snooggums, 10 months ago

canis_majoris said to stop caring and you replied with

I don't. That's why I called them imaginary internet points. Lol. My point was about the fact that you can see who downvotes you.

Yet, you noticed someone downvoting a bunch of your posts and took the time to contact them and ask for reason. Then you didn't like their response and made this post. Then when I downvoted it you downvoted my post. The only reason for you to do any of this is because you care about being downvoted. You react to it, yet say you don't care. That is what you said and did, and what I am responding to.

I hate being accused of lying, so I responded to you implying that I'm lying by claiming something other than what you said.

sour, 10 months ago

is difference between getting downvoted and effect of getting downvoted

be_excellent_to_each_other, 10 months ago

FWIW, I usually downvote if the person is a dick. Often I also disagree with them, but not always. If you are dragging the conversation down (in some way other than having an unpopular opinion) you get a downvote.

billothekid2, 10 months ago

Agreed. Also, party on dude!

livus, 10 months ago

Fair enough. I think my dick threshold is pretty high, they have to be spamming or griefing or something like that.

FaceDeer, 10 months ago

I see that @AmidFuror was not a fan of this comment. :)

AmidFuror, 10 months ago

Damn straight.

ThatOneKirbyMain2568, 10 months ago

I don't think it's as simple as that. Downvotes do have some kind of meaning — when you give a downvote, you're doing it for some reason that you want to convey — and people are going to interpret downvotes accordingly. If downvotes didn't mean anything, then there'd be no point to them existing at all. What exactly a downvote means depends on the person giving it, but it's ideally (imo) used to express that a post is spam, hateful, or otherwise a bad contribution to the discussion. Obviously, people shouldn't take downvotes personally, but a post being downvoted does and should mean something.

Thus, what OP mentions in his post is a legitimate concern. Public votes allow people to more easily downvote spam someone who downvoted them, which is unequivocally a bad thing that we'd prefer not to have. However, whether we should make votes private is a matter of whether the downsides outweigh the upsides, and they don't.

Dio, 10 months ago

Is this really an issue for people. Lol.

magnetosphere, 10 months ago

You’re asking this in a thread where someone describes exactly how it’s an issue for them.

canis_majoris, 10 months ago

Yeah but it’s a non-issue, because they’re describing a behavior that cannot be prohibited regardless of if you can see who did it or not. It’s not like there’s a hard archive timer on votes disallowing comments to be interacted with; people can go down the whole history of any of our accounts and downvote all of it.

It’s literally a non-issue, this guy is freaking out because he can just see who did it, like it makes a difference. It’s the ostrich syndrome, if you bury your head in the sand (can’t verify) then it matters less.

billothekid2, 10 months ago

Who's freaking out my dude? My point was this wouldn't have happened if THEY didn't know who I was. You and others make some good points about some how this happens regardless, and how there are upsides to seeing who downvotes you. I honestly wasn't aware this was a common thing until now. It's why I asked if this has happened to anyone else. Chalk it up to me being a bit naive.

canis_majoris, 10 months ago

I just don’t get how anybody doesn’t understand how user voting works, regardless of the ability to identify who did which votes.

Are you just now learning that on the internet people are just randomly dicks? Like it hasn’t been that way for the last 20 years?

billothekid2, 10 months ago

Oh, I'm aware. I've just never heard of "Downvote Fairies". In any case that was never my point, as I've explained.

FaceDeer, 10 months ago

Didn't you just see the upside too, though? You can see who's downvoting all your comments and call them out on it. Someone could downvote stalk you on Reddit (quite sure that has happened to me before) and it would be invisible and unprovable.

billothekid2, 10 months ago

True, but if they hadn't seen it was me that downvoted them in the first place, they wouldn't know who to stalk, and I wouldn't have to call anyone out at all. Really though, I can still see both sides here. I'm just bitter it happened to me. Lol

livus, 10 months ago (edited 10 months ago)

@billothekid2 I'm with @FaceDeer on this, it's way better to know you have a Downvote Fairy than to just think no one appreciates your comments.

Back on reddit it happens a lot, but the targets are more likely to feel discouraged or think the person they are replying to is the one downvoting them.

Besides, I had someone doing this to me here on kbin for a couple of days and they are not someone I ever downvoted or had even argued with.

I asked them to stop and they downvoted me one last time and then stopped. I don't think they'd realized I can see them.

So the cause isn't that people can see your downvotes, it's that some people are just dicks.

sik0fewl, 10 months ago

So the cause isn't that people can see your downvotes, it's that some people are just dicks.

Words to remember.

Madison_rogue, 10 months ago

They went through all the trouble to downvote every post. You lived in that user's head rent free all that time. Wear that shit like a badge of honor. They're internet points; they're not important.

magnetosphere, 10 months ago

Yeah, trolls really care about being “called out”. Trolls can’t stand negative attention, so be sure to tell lots of people who they are and what they did!

FaceDeer, 10 months ago (edited 10 months ago)

Assuming you're being sarcastic and mean the opposite, this hasn't been my experience, actually. Just like with @livus, above, I called out a downvote-stalker once who'd been following me around and when I described how I was seeing his downvote pattern he instantly vanished. In my experience the "downvote warriors" are a cowardly bunch, they love being able to throw punches without being seen to throw punches. Once you make it clear to them that everyone can see what they're doing they crumple under scrutiny.

The trolls you're talking about are the kind that love to get into an argument with you. That's quite different.

livus, 10 months ago

@FaceDeer interesting, wonder if it was the same person!

The other thing that hasn't bern mentioned yet is vote manipulation is easy to spot on kbin.

When reddit first migrated here I remember someone being called out for having 3 or 4 profiles upvote/downvote all the same things.

FaceDeer, 10 months ago

Could be, I have no clue what their name was. I feel the worst fate for such people is to be irrelevant so I try to forget about them. :)

Yeah, the ability to spot vote manipulation is a nice one. The current interface for kbin makes it laborious to click through so many comments and posts to check, but once the API is settled it should be possible to write some nice tools for that kind of thing.

magnetosphere, 10 months ago

Okay. Yeah, I was being sarcastic, but now I see we had different kinds of trolls in mind. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

FaceDeer, 10 months ago

No problem. And I can imagine that there might be some out there who would indeed be gleeful about being called out for downvoting because they're just that deep into the "raging asshole" state that any negative attention is giving them the dopamine hit they crave. But I suspect that kind of troll is going to be blatant enough that he'll get blocked or banned by most places worth hanging out in anyway.

I probably shouldn't admit it, but one of my favourite ways of dealing with a raging asshole on Reddit was to be impeccably polite to them until they blew their stack badly enough while trying to provoke me that I could report them. :) I'd only do that if they were clearly already unredeemable, though.

livus, 10 months ago

@FaceDeer the super annoying thing on reddit would be when I was having a polite discussion with someone and a third party came along and silently downvoted everything they said to me.

Then they'd get all annoyed assuming it was me who did it.

FaceDeer, 10 months ago

A "fun" experience from Reddit that I'm glad is impossible here on kbin is when I'm in an argument with someone and they would insta-downvote every response I made to them, then vociferously deny that they were doing it even when it was basically impossible for it to be otherwise (for example if we were in a days-old thread nobody else was paying attention to and the downvote was happening within a minute or two of me posting - too fast to even have read the comment).

On a related note, I'm pleased that blocking someone doesn't prevent them from responding to your comments here. The "get the 'last word' in and then block me so I couldn't answer" pattern was even more annoying, since karma was meaningless anyway but the block disrupted the flow of informative debate if other people were following it too. In such situations I'd edit the last comment I'd made to mention what had happened, at least. Hope that shamed a few folks at least a little bit.

livus, 10 months ago

@FaceDeer yeah that secret downvoting thing was super passive-aggressive.

What was most annoying about blocks was that bug where you couldn't reply to anyone downthread of a comment by the person who blocked you, so they could effectively end your other conversations with other people.

squiblet, 10 months ago

Happens on reddit anyway. Even though people can’t see who downvoted them, they guess. Or someone (or a brigade) mass downvotes not because you downvoted their comment but just because they disagree with or resent your comments. Reddit avoided this by ignoring repeated downvotes from one person and on profile pages.

Personally, if there’s someone who is really abrasive or I just really disagree with and find their posts agitating or distracting, I just block them and that avoids the problem for both of us.

Destragras, 10 months ago

I have the downvote button hidden completely using the KES script because of that issue.

Reddit allowing you to hide your own up/downvotes to others is a really nice privacy feature that I wish the Fediverse in general had, but unfortunately the nature of federation doesn't make that possible unless you prevent them federating to other servers.

Eggyhead, 10 months ago

I think the significance of votes expires after “generally positive/negative reception”. One or two downvotes seems insignificant.

KevonLooney, 10 months ago

I thought this was a good point, so I upvoted it. Now you have two upvotes.

I’m rethinking my decision…

Eggyhead, 10 months ago

You’re more than welcome to, my friend. It’s your vote to do with as you please.

livus, 10 months ago

@billothekid2 I just thought of another aspect.

On reddit about 8 years ago there was a bunch of discussion of how people were running automated scripts to downvote everything by people they didn't like or whatever.

And reddit had to build in a safeguard so those automated script downvotes no longer counted. Those kinds of shenannigans would be much easier to spot in kbin's current system.

Arelin, 10 months ago

Slightly off-topic, but I don’t think downvotes should be a thing at all. Silences minority opinions by lessening their visibility and discouraging further discussion even when they’re correct. People also tend to not respond to those comments/posts in good faith, as if the downvotes prove them wrong. Turns the place into an echo chamber.

Taking out downvotes would allow for less popular opinions to have higher visibility and discussion since the majority can’t just downvote it, just because they slightly disagree with it or are biased against it, and silence discussion.

People who do agree would also be able to show it through upvotes, and it wouldn’t be eaten up by the downvotes.

Spam, hateful and rule-breaking comments/posts would just be reported instead. As is the case for some Lemmy instances already.

Donut, 10 months ago

Agreed. Downvotes were never used in the intended way and just turned into “I disagree with this”.

aroom, 10 months ago

I don't think that it's off topic at all, in the contrary. If you analyse the situation described by the OP, the issue is not the fact that our actions are transparents, the issue is due to the consequence of downvoting a post and how this action made another person feel and how they acted on this feeling.

Downvoting is not a constructive tool and should be abolished. It's not a matter of the users not using it the right way, it's a matter of psychological behaviour.

We should design tools that help us to bring the best in us, not the worst. We are not here on a commercial platform who need to hook us with dopamine shot, and trigger us on engaging by frustrating us. We need to build things differently. Federating servers is great but not enough.

I think that an option to be able to remove the display of the downvote tool and downvote count should be available in the settings. I would like to abolish it all together but I'm not interested to impose this on other users, so bring me an opt out please.

what do you think @ernest? let's change this paradigm and build another better tool?

minnieo, 10 months ago

if you take out the downvotes, the upvotes must go with it. but also, kbins algorithm isnt over-programmed and calculating, i see varying levels of upvoted and downvoted comments mixed together and i like it that way so everyone is included. on kbin, if youre downvoted, its usually been for good reason as far as ive seen, and ive also never had to go LOOKING for downvoted comments that are buried like on reddit. they are right there on kbin. the 'algorithm' is no algorithm. its honest

ADHDefy, 10 months ago

Agreed. I can see this being more harmful than helpful.

ADHDefy, 10 months ago

I'm calling you out, @BadWolf 😂

ADHDefy, 10 months ago

Wait, how do you see who downvoted you? I didn't know that was thing here.