CoffeeAddict

CoffeeAddict, 2 months ago

Good to know! I guess we will have to wait for ernest to come back then to enable it on kbin.social.

I hope he is doing well, his last post mentioned a hospital visit.

CoffeeAddict, 5 months ago

Very well said and you have captured many of my exact fears.

Personally, if the decentralized fediverse was more developed and mature, I would not be as concerned about federating with Threads. But, Meta is entering at a time when everything is really just starting to develop.

They’ll be the big instance and they’ll have a lot of influence over the others as a result.

Just to give an example, What would happen if Lemmy.world decided to cut off kbin? Kbin would lose a ton of content and access to most of the large communities. Threads, thanks to Meta’s resources and huge Instagram user base, will likely gain more active users and communities than lemmy in no time and they could do the same. The difference is I believe Meta may be more likely to down the line because an open fediverse doesn’t fit super nicely into their business model.

I understand many people disagree and that is fine; nobody knows the future. If we decide to federate with Threads then so be it, and if it turns out I am totally wrong then I will eat my words. All I am trying to articulate is that I think there is reason to be skeptical of Meta.

CoffeeAddict, 5 months ago

I see what you’re saying, but I really don’t see what Meta stands to gain in the long run from an open fediverse. It just doesn’t seem compatible with their business model to allow users who aren’t on their platform to interact with content created on their platform. They need data so they can sell it to advertisers, and I don’t see how that works when your users can just jump to another instance with no advertisments and access all the same content.

What do you think Meta stands to gain from Activity Pub, and why wouldn’t they just make their own closed protocol? (I am asking in good faith, because I do not really know.)

CoffeeAddict, 5 months ago

Defederation is about what an instance allows in, not what an instance allows out. Defederation stops you seeing the defederated instance's content, but it does not stop them seeing your instance's content.

Threads poses some danger to the fediverse, in particular the portion of it centered around microblogging (mostly Mastodon, but also Pleroma, parts of /kbin, etc.), but very little risk to the threadiverse.

The worst thing about the fediverse is all the fondue, but you don't have to eat it.

Emphasis from the original post.

This is a detailed summary, thank you for linking.

I have also read some other POVs here; my fears are not totally allayed and I still think Meta is only engaing with Activity Pub to prevent new, potential competitors arising from it.

I hope the OP is right about it being very little risk to the Threadiverse. The good news is that Threads is focused enitrely on microblogging and not the Threadiverse. Perhaps that means Kbin and Lemmy users will be able to sit on the sidelines and see how it plays out for a bit, idk. Mastodon users will be seeing the most change.

Either way, I remain a skeptic.

CoffeeAddict, 5 months ago

Right, and that’s part of why I remain a skeptic. Kbin’s microblog being overtaken by Thread’s content could very well limit kbin’s growth and viability as a microblogging platform - especially if Meta pulls the plug later.

But, I have also seen the opinion that not having Threads content could make kbin unappealing as a microblogging platform. (I’m not sure if I agree with this, but I have seen it mentioned.)

I guess the questions are, Can Kbin grow with Threads content? And, Will the lack of Threads content make it unappealing to new users?

Also, another problem I think is that kbin might not have the userbase and content yet to be self-sustaining when faced with a goliath company like Meta; if we produced as much content as Threads will (or enough to the point that defederating kbin would hurt Threads) then there wouldn’t be much of a concern.

Idk, Threads is ultimately the one forcing the situation (probably intentionally) where federating with them is risky but also refusing to do so could be self-isolating. I still maintain that they’re doing it now while the fediverse is still young for a reason, and that is so they can grab so much of the “fondue” that everyone comes to them anyway.

I would like to see kbin succeed, and I don’t trust Meta. Whatever kbin decides to do I will be here for it, but I’m definitely a Meta skeptic.

CoffeeAddict, 5 months ago

Exactly one of the reasons why I remain a skeptic.

I don’t want sound too much like I’m complaining about “Eternal September” but I quite like how kbin’s microblog is right now. Having millions of threads users suddenly flood it with random… crap… would change it forever.

I haven’t used instagram in more than half a decade. When I hopped on to see what it was like recently, I hardly recognized it and all the content was completely irrelevant. I would hate to see that happen to the microblog.

CoffeeAddict, 5 months ago

• More optional applicable permissions to moderators when owners add them: Right now, when I add a moderator, they can only delete, ban and moderate posts in general, but accessing the mod panel is impossible unless you are an admin, so this means, moderators can't help owners with community rules, description, or even attach a new logo. There should atleast be some kind of supermod option or role that I could enable for the mods, so that this remains an optional but needed feature for some (and I am one of them).

This is something I have noticed. It would be nice to have the magazine panel open to more moderators than just the owner (though, I understand why it may have been set up like that to begin with.)

Also, are reports also submitted and viewed under the magazine panel?

CoffeeAddict, 5 months ago

While I agree the web app is not the perfect solution, I think it actually works fairly well all things considered. It will never be as smooth as an actual app, but I think time will eventually fix that.

Artemis being abandoned was very disappointing, but there are other developers working on adding kbin support - Lunar for Lemmy is one of them: https://kbin.social/m/lunar@lemmy.world/t/682006/Kbin-Support

Lunar is being developed for iOS. I think there is another one being developed for android but I forget the name.

CoffeeAddict, 5 months ago

It is pretty bare bones, but Lunar for Lemmy is adding support for kbin. https://kbin.social/m/lunar@lemmy.world/t/682006/Kbin-Support

Right now, it is only for iOS. I think there is another one being made for android. (I think ernest has included a link to both of these in one of his daily logs.)

Still, it will probably take some time before everything is polished.

CoffeeAddict, 5 months ago

I can only think of two, and they would be exploiting this system for their own end. (Also, please keep in mind that at the time of writing I am not 100% sure how kbin & the wider fediverse's blocking system works. If I have some incorrect assumptions please correct me.)

1. They block the person to get the last word in, thereby "winning" the argument. Silly, yes, but people do this.
2. They create a post/thread and block anyone who comments/disagrees with them. Those people can no longer interact with the post/thread. The only reason this is a problem is because it is a form of self-moderation. (Though, as @wagesj45 pointed out this could be a self-solving problem if they continue to block everyone they disagree with.)

I consider both of these to be pretty rare exploitations of the blocking system, but they happen. I guess it is a question of is this system worth it with these downsides? Some people will go to extreme lengths to harass people, so I don't feel qualified to say either way.

CoffeeAddict, 5 months ago

Could it be made that a blocked person's votes simply have no effect on the posts of people that blocked them? (ie from the blocked persons end it looks like they downvoted the person but the actually didn't.)

Also, by hiding everything from the blocked person you also run the risk of the blocked person finding out they were blocked, which is not exactly a good thing either; they could have an alt and easily see the person's content and harass them that way.

CoffeeAddict, 5 months ago

Someone could literally make a website listing downvotes throughout the fediverse, and there's nothing stopping them.

This is why I agree that it should be shown upfront. A lot of people won’t like it, but I think users should be somewhat aware that it’s all technically visible.

Someone is gonna make an instance that does exactly this at some point. It will be inevitable as the fediverse matures.

CoffeeAddict, 5 months ago

Also, even if they wanted to I don’t think voting could be made anonymous at this point, either. I’m not a programmer in any sense, but I imagine it would totally break federation. Total anonymity would probably need to be a feature from the start.

Kbin at least puts it out there so you know it’s not totally anonymous. Sometimes I wonder how many lemmy users are unaware of this because the software doesn’t make it apparent.

CoffeeAddict, 5 months ago (edited 5 months ago)

I understand what you are saying here, and I have flip-flopped on the issue myself. At the moment I personally am a fan of the limited downvote federation because I do think it acts as a hivemind barrier; to use reddit as an example, as it got bigger the downvote was used as a means to disagree without adding any value to the discussion or to simply silence a dissenting point of view.

That is not to say there were not times when a downvote was warranted - hateful comments, racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, and general bigotry are all more than deserving of a downvote. There are also bots and general off-topic posts & comments that may warrant a downvote.

Overall though, I think the problem is how the downvote was used (on Reddit, at least) was not conducive to discussion. However, due to the fact that upvotes and downvotes are public on kbin it is possible that behavior could change, but then that could create problems with other instances where none of that information is public to begin with. (Nobody wants to have a crazy person come after them over a downvote.)

Right now, the fediverse is pretty small and Kbin is actually the most welcoming instance I have found so far. I am not sure if the lack of downvote federation has anything to do with this, but so far I actually like it. Maybe once kbin and the expanded fediverse grows larger my opinion will change, but right now I feel like it’s helping to make it more hospitable than reddit.

Edit: grammar and clarity

CoffeeAddict, 5 months ago

(i.e. boost= two upvotes).

I think this is an interesting concept.

Lemmy users don’t have boosts, so they would not be able to deliver “two upvotes” but I also think kbin shouldn’t be limited by what lemmy can or cannot do.

Having both sorting algorithms for both upvotes and boosts available as a sort option might be the most fair way forward.

CoffeeAddict, 5 months ago

Right! I sometimes wonder if that could not lead to a schism in the future; many, many people on lemmy value their complete anonymity and they could see kbin exposing their upvotes and downvotes as a violation of that. (Not saying that people on kbin don’t, but I think we act knowing that people can see who upvoted/favorited or downvoted/reduced a post.)

I can say that public voting has definitely changed my use of the downvote; I was much more trigger happy with it on reddit whereas I don’t think I have used it at all since I joined kbin. Lemmy users seem to use it the same way Redditors do, largely because voting isn’t public on their end.